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Post by flatapex on Jul 6, 2016 21:06:00 GMT
hoovers, cucumbers and bananas. What have I just walked in on? Sounds like just another day in Brussels good job you didnt hear me cursing our cylinder hoover when trying to clean the car out at weekend
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Brexit
Aug 12, 2016 11:27:20 GMT
Post by kungfukid on Aug 12, 2016 11:27:20 GMT
If the Brexit is ever actually completed beyond the various ongoing delays, it will not be a good thing for the UK. I'll qualify this by saying that I'm one of the fortunate ones who genuinely knows and understands the ins and outs of the organisation having taken the EU and advanced EU law streams as part of my undergraduate law degree over a decade ago, and having taught EU law, advanced EU law, and various individual aspects of EU law within other subjects areas such as criminal law, evidence, and Victimology since 2007. I've been fortunate not to suffer from the ingrained negativity for all things EU caused by the UK's poor mass media propaganda dating back to the 70s on anything that might 'threaten national sovereignty'. Most people don't truly understand what the EU actually does, how decisions are reached, the competencies of the individual EU Institutions, and especially the very positive benefits that being a Member State of the EU, and a citizen of that State, brings. It's not anyone's fault though, since it is a very, very complex subject. I lecture for 24 weeks of the year, 6 hours a week on the subject and still barely cover the basics, so find it completely impossible to abridge what I could say into a short forum post. I did write a short post on my blog about it the day after the result which you can read here if you want to: Blog on Brexit.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2016 15:36:49 GMT
If the Brexit is ever actually completed beyond the various ongoing delays, it will not be a good thing for the UK. I'll qualify this by saying that I'm one of the fortunate ones who genuinely knows and understands the ins and outs of the organisation having taken the EU and advanced EU law streams as part of my undergraduate law degree over a decade ago, and having taught EU law, advanced EU law, and various individual aspects of EU law within other subjects areas such as criminal law, evidence, and Victimology since 2007. I've been fortunate not to suffer from the ingrained negativity for all things EU caused by the UK's poor mass media propaganda dating back to the 70s on anything that might 'threaten national sovereignty'. Most people don't truly understand what the EU actually does, how decisions are reached, the competencies of the individual EU Institutions, and especially the very positive benefits that being a Member State of the EU, and a citizen of that State, brings. It's not anyone's fault though, since it is a very, very complex subject. I lecture for 24 weeks of the year, 6 hours a week on the subject and still barely cover the basics, so find it completely impossible to abridge what I could say into a short forum post. I did write a short post on my blog about it the day after the result which you can read here if you want to: Blog on Brexit. What crap. You can't possibly say it's a good or bad thing when nothing like this has happened before. Everyone has their own opinion and judging that you lecture on this subject you are obviously going to be bias. I personally felt the media was very pro EU. On the Brexit campaign they had people like Andrea Leadsom and other people who worked within the EU sector and had a lot of knowledge about why in their opinion, we are better off out of the EU. My theory is basically it is like living under your parents roof... My house my rules, you have to contribute X amount of your income to the household.... Why do you think you don't live with your parents forever? Simply because you want to thrive and make your own way in life. Obviously we are all entitled to our opinions but really winds me up when people think they have superior opinion over anyone else's because they done law and do a few lectures a year. If you had simply said I think we would be better off in the EU, then I wouldn't bother commenting as I would respect your opinion, all the extra crap of being a know it all, tempted me to comment.
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Brexit
Aug 15, 2016 17:39:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by Transatlantic Foe on Aug 15, 2016 17:39:15 GMT
I don't think that's very fair. Having an opinion should be based on information and someone who has studied the process of the EU is going to have a greater understanding of the evidence and consequences. Stating that is not to belittle others but to back up one's opinion with evidence of knowledge.
The EU certainly isn't as straightforward as the media presented and nor is life outside the EU. People have their opinions on what they would like and have voted in line with the closest approximation in a binary decision. But it doesn't mean that approximation is possible in reality - for both yes and no voters. It was sad to see the false propaganda rolled out by both sides and relegate an important decision to simple political point scoring. It shows how broken the political system is in this country and how dangerous partisan media outlets are in shaping views (again, in both camps). Any decision this major should have been made under election mandate as stay/leave have different impacts on other policy points - but with engangement so low and confidence in politicians so battered that personality is more noticable than compassion, doing this in an election mandate further disenfranchises people because they see their choices limited to two parties.
In my opinion is it better to engage in a system to make it improve and work in the best interests of everyone. I would happily have no borders and no "us and them" entitlement based on where you were born. For that reason I was happy to be in the EU and work to see it improve.
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Post by Kenneth on Aug 15, 2016 19:51:09 GMT
Kungfukid: you say "It's not anyone's fault though, since it is a very, very complex subject. I lecture for 24 weeks of the year, 6 hours a week on the subject and still barely cover the basics" I think that's the main problem... How on earth could anything that complicated actually work when, as you just pointed, almost nobody actually knows how it's supposed to run ? Do you really think there's 1% of the people that are working in the EU parliament that understands how it's supposed to run ? I suggest you watch this movie: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_(1985_film)and reread some Orwell to understand where such complicated bureaucracy always lead and why people in britain actually voted to get their sovereignty back.
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Brexit
Aug 15, 2016 19:51:17 GMT
via mobile
Post by kungfukid on Aug 15, 2016 19:51:17 GMT
If the Brexit is ever actually completed beyond the various ongoing delays, it will not be a good thing for the UK. I'll qualify this by saying that I'm one of the fortunate ones who genuinely knows and understands the ins and outs of the organisation having taken the EU and advanced EU law streams as part of my undergraduate law degree over a decade ago, and having taught EU law, advanced EU law, and various individual aspects of EU law within other subjects areas such as criminal law, evidence, and Victimology since 2007. I've been fortunate not to suffer from the ingrained negativity for all things EU caused by the UK's poor mass media propaganda dating back to the 70s on anything that might 'threaten national sovereignty'. Most people don't truly understand what the EU actually does, how decisions are reached, the competencies of the individual EU Institutions, and especially the very positive benefits that being a Member State of the EU, and a citizen of that State, brings. It's not anyone's fault though, since it is a very, very complex subject. I lecture for 24 weeks of the year, 6 hours a week on the subject and still barely cover the basics, so find it completely impossible to abridge what I could say into a short forum post. I did write a short post on my blog about it the day after the result which you can read here if you want to: Blog on Brexit. What crap. You can't possibly say it's a good or bad thing when nothing like this has happened before. Everyone has their own opinion and judging that you lecture on this subject you are obviously going to be bias. I personally felt the media was very pro EU. On the Brexit campaign they had people like Andrea Leadsom and other people who worked within the EU sector and had a lot of knowledge about why in their opinion, we are better off out of the EU. My theory is basically it is like living under your parents roof... My house my rules, you have to contribute X amount of your income to the household.... Why do you think you don't live with your parents forever? Simply because you want to thrive and make your own way in life. Obviously we are all entitled to our opinions but really winds me up when people think they have superior opinion over anyone else's because they done law and do a few lectures a year. If you had simply said I think we would be better off in the EU, then I wouldn't bother commenting as I would respect your opinion, all the extra crap of being a know it all, tempted me to comment. I'll be polite and ask you not to write in the insulting, confrontational tone that you did again - this isn't that sort of forum. Thanks. If there are any problems with this, please private message me. And indeed as transatlantic foe said, I mentioned my background to back up that I'm not coming at this from a generalist perspective, but a professional one given that I work with the subject matter on a daily basis and have done for years. I am certainly not biased, I teach from a completely neutral standpoint and emphasise to my students that they have to form their own opinions based on the real strengths and weaknesses, not based on media half-truths from either side. Again, I did say in my original post that I was lucky to be in the position I am, I guess it's not always easy to convey what you want to say in writing.
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Brexit
Aug 15, 2016 20:00:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by retrokevretro on Aug 15, 2016 20:00:45 GMT
If the Brexit is ever actually completed beyond the various ongoing delays, it will not be a good thing for the UK. I'll qualify this by saying that I'm one of the fortunate ones who genuinely knows and understands the ins and outs of the organisation having taken the EU and advanced EU law streams as part of my undergraduate law degree over a decade ago, and having taught EU law, advanced EU law, and various individual aspects of EU law within other subjects areas such as criminal law, evidence, and Victimology since 2007. I've been fortunate not to suffer from the ingrained negativity for all things EU caused by the UK's poor mass media propaganda dating back to the 70s on anything that might 'threaten national sovereignty'. Most people don't truly understand what the EU actually does, how decisions are reached, the competencies of the individual EU Institutions, and especially the very positive benefits that being a Member State of the EU, and a citizen of that State, brings. It's not anyone's fault though, since it is a very, very complex subject. I lecture for 24 weeks of the year, 6 hours a week on the subject and still barely cover the basics, so find it completely impossible to abridge what I could say into a short forum post. I did write a short post on my blog about it the day after the result which you can read here if you want to: Blog on Brexit. What crap. You can't possibly say it's a good or bad thing when nothing like this has happened before. Everyone has their own opinion and judging that you lecture on this subject you are obviously going to be bias. I personally felt the media was very pro EU. On the Brexit campaign they had people like Andrea Leadsom and other people who worked within the EU sector and had a lot of knowledge about why in their opinion, we are better off out of the EU. My theory is basically it is like living under your parents roof... My house my rules, you have to contribute X amount of your income to the household.... Why do you think you don't live with your parents forever? Simply because you want to thrive and make your own way in life. Obviously we are all entitled to our opinions but really winds me up when people think they have superior opinion over anyone else's because they done law and do a few lectures a year. If you had simply said I think we would be better off in the EU, then I wouldn't bother commenting as I would respect your opinion, all the extra crap of being a know it all, tempted me to comment. Exactly what I was thinking but was unwilling to get into it on what is meant to be a fun forum, lol. But what the heck! My next door neighbour voted remain because her son has a business and lives in Austria so it made complete sense for her to support her son by voting remain. For me however (being a different person with different priorities than those of my neighbour) I chose to vote leave as resources in my area such as jobs, housing and health care etc.. Are way over stretched. Freedom of movement equates to increased competition. I'm not an educated man but stopping freedom of movement reduces competition for resources (an educated man can probably afford private health care and is probably not going to face competition for housing / employment from eastern Europeans). So I completely accept that an educated person who benefits from migration would want to remain but fail to understand how an educated person comes to the conclusion that we should all agree with them?
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Brexit
Aug 15, 2016 20:01:50 GMT
via mobile
Post by kungfukid on Aug 15, 2016 20:01:50 GMT
Kungfukid: you say "It's not anyone's fault though, since it is a very, very complex subject. I lecture for 24 weeks of the year, 6 hours a week on the subject and still barely cover the basics" I think that's the main problem... How on earth could anything that complicated actually work when, as you just pointed, almost nobody actually knows how it's supposed to run ? Do you really think there's 1% of the people that are working in the EU parliament that understands how it's supposed to run ? I suggest you watch this movie: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_(1985_film)and reread some Orwell to understand where such complicated bureaucracy always lead and why people in britain actually voted to get their sovereignty back. It is indeed one of the big problems. Moreso because each of the various institutions that form the EU framework individually are not too complicated to explain (the Commission, the Parliament, the CJEU, the Council etc.), it's how they work together to frame legislation and policies that begins to make things complicated, as well is the different competencies each of them hold. I do believe some of this can be combatted with better civic education in Schools though, as is the case in many other countries, it's something we're particularly poor at in the UK.
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Brexit
Aug 15, 2016 20:11:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by kungfukid on Aug 15, 2016 20:11:08 GMT
What crap. You can't possibly say it's a good or bad thing when nothing like this has happened before. Everyone has their own opinion and judging that you lecture on this subject you are obviously going to be bias. I personally felt the media was very pro EU. On the Brexit campaign they had people like Andrea Leadsom and other people who worked within the EU sector and had a lot of knowledge about why in their opinion, we are better off out of the EU. My theory is basically it is like living under your parents roof... My house my rules, you have to contribute X amount of your income to the household.... Why do you think you don't live with your parents forever? Simply because you want to thrive and make your own way in life. Obviously we are all entitled to our opinions but really winds me up when people think they have superior opinion over anyone else's because they done law and do a few lectures a year. If you had simply said I think we would be better off in the EU, then I wouldn't bother commenting as I would respect your opinion, all the extra crap of being a know it all, tempted me to comment. Exactly what I was thinking but was unwilling to get into it on what is meant to be a fun forum, lol. But what the heck! My next door neighbour voted remain because her son has a business and lives in Austria so it made complete sense for her to support her son by voting remain. For me however (being a different person with different priorities than those of my neighbour) I chose to vote leave as resources in my area such as jobs, housing and health care etc.. Are way over stretched. Freedom of movement equates to increased competition. I'm not an educated man but stopping freedom of movement reduces competition for resources (an educated man can probably afford private health care and is probably not going to face competition for housing / employment from eastern Europeans). So I completely accept that an educated person who benefits from migration would want to remain but fail to understand how an educated person comes to the conclusion that we should all agree with them? Because the EU issue is not solely about free movement or competition for jobs, though of course as a personal reason if someone feels they are disproportionately affected by it then absolutely that's a reason to vote to leave. I totally get that. But there are important benefits too - legal safeguards for employees and other categories of workers, legal protections and rights for victims of crime amongst them. Taking these issues away from the domestic party political system and not allowing political parties to play games with them can only be a good thing. The points I'm making are not based at the individual level really though, of course there will be hugely varying circumstances that will make people vote different ways, but based on what will be good or bad for the overall country as a whole.
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Brexit
Aug 15, 2016 20:24:43 GMT
via mobile
Post by retrokevretro on Aug 15, 2016 20:24:43 GMT
Exactly what I was thinking but was unwilling to get into it on what is meant to be a fun forum, lol. But what the heck! My next door neighbour voted remain because her son has a business and lives in Austria so it made complete sense for her to support her son by voting remain. For me however (being a different person with different priorities than those of my neighbour) I chose to vote leave as resources in my area such as jobs, housing and health care etc.. Are way over stretched. Freedom of movement equates to increased competition. I'm not an educated man but stopping freedom of movement reduces competition for resources (an educated man can probably afford private health care and is probably not going to face competition for housing / employment from eastern Europeans). So I completely accept that an educated person who benefits from migration would want to remain but fail to understand how an educated person comes to the conclusion that we should all agree with them? Because the EU issue is not solely about free movement or competition for jobs, though of course as a personal reason if someone feels they are disproportionately affected by it then absolutely that's a reason to vote to leave. I totally get that. But there are important benefits too - legal safeguards for employees and other categories of workers, legal protections and rights for victims of crime amongst them. Taking these issues away from the domestic party political system and not allowing political parties to play games with them can only be a good thing. The points I'm making are not based at the individual level really though, of course there will be hugely varying circumstances that will make people vote different ways, but based on what will be good or bad for the overall country as a whole. Isn't this the very reason we had a referendum? To gage the percentage of UK citizens who benefit from EU membership against those who are disadvantaged. I understand there will be a price to pay for leaving the EU but if it means that my children will one day find employment and housing easier to come by then I fully accept it.
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Brexit
Aug 15, 2016 21:58:14 GMT
Post by Rastanfarian on Aug 15, 2016 21:58:14 GMT
I'm glad that things seem to be as screwed up in the U.K. as here in the U.S.
Terrible of me to say I know...I'm not hoping/wishing for others to struggle, but I do rest easier knowing that the struggles we face here in the U.S. with a two party system are echoed elsewhere.
This may be a stupid question... was there a vote or referendum in the U.K to join the EU in 1973 (?) or whenever it became a member?
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Brexit
Aug 16, 2016 6:32:34 GMT
Post by flatapex on Aug 16, 2016 6:32:34 GMT
I'm glad that things seem to be as screwed up in the U.K. as here in the U.S. Terrible of me to say I know...I'm not hoping/wishing for others to struggle, but I do rest easier knowing that the struggles we face here in the U.S. with a two party system are echoed elsewhere. This may be a stupid question... was there a vote or referendum in the U.K to join the EU in 1973 (?) or whenever it became a member? it was solely a common market back then and there was a referendum in 1975.
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Post by Retrobob on Aug 16, 2016 8:23:54 GMT
Correct - what became the EU was set up as a trading block, we were told that it was not going to be a political union. The government took us in to the common market in 1973 and in 1975 we voted to stay in the common market on that basis. This was not true.
The EU cannot control its own spending and decisions are too far removed from European citizens and people all over Europe know this... ask yourself, what is the name of your MEP(s)? We don't need to be in a political union to trade with other countries, or to share security information. I live here but have customers in Europe, my job involves working with people in Europe and beyond... I love Europe, but I don't like the EU - I voted to leave.
I'd have said the same thing 12 months ago. I must say, project fear did a magnificent job of terrifying people - it's much less than it was in the immediate aftermath but some of them are still predicting doom and talking down our country.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2016 16:44:53 GMT
What crap. You can't possibly say it's a good or bad thing when nothing like this has happened before. Everyone has their own opinion and judging that you lecture on this subject you are obviously going to be bias. I personally felt the media was very pro EU. On the Brexit campaign they had people like Andrea Leadsom and other people who worked within the EU sector and had a lot of knowledge about why in their opinion, we are better off out of the EU. My theory is basically it is like living under your parents roof... My house my rules, you have to contribute X amount of your income to the household.... Why do you think you don't live with your parents forever? Simply because you want to thrive and make your own way in life. Obviously we are all entitled to our opinions but really winds me up when people think they have superior opinion over anyone else's because they done law and do a few lectures a year. If you had simply said I think we would be better off in the EU, then I wouldn't bother commenting as I would respect your opinion, all the extra crap of being a know it all, tempted me to comment. I'll be polite and ask you not to write in the insulting, confrontational tone that you did again - this isn't that sort of forum. Thanks. If there are any problems with this, please private message me. And indeed as transatlantic foe said, I mentioned my background to back up that I'm not coming at this from a generalist perspective, but a professional one given that I work with the subject matter on a daily basis and have done for years. I am certainly not biased, I teach from a completely neutral standpoint and emphasise to my students that they have to form their own opinions based on the real strengths and weaknesses, not based on media half-truths from either side. Again, I did say in my original post that I was lucky to be in the position I am, I guess it's not always easy to convey what you want to say in writing. If that's a confrontational tone and it offends you then maybe you should limit your use of the Internet, as it can be quite offending to delicate souls. You are right this is not that type of forum and I didn't want to get into a serious discussion on this sort of forum. As you can see from previous comments on this thread, I made light of it at first. Anyway I'm off to do some retail therapy of eBay and games before I get a slap on the wrist
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