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Post by englishinvader on Dec 21, 2014 13:17:16 GMT
I think there are some games (particularly from the mid to late 90s) that seem dated now because they aimed to create a realistic environment and that level of realism has long since been surpassed (Sega Rally Championship on the Saturn or Golden Eye on the N64) while games of the same era (or earlier) don't seem dated because they never aimed for realism in the first place (Metal Slug, Theme Hospital, Sonic the Hedgehog).
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Post by flatapex on Dec 21, 2014 15:04:01 GMT
its not a new situation though
Games have been described as dated for as long as any of us can remember, i have magazines in my possession from the 80s reviewing amstrad games as dated compared to other new releases, it is a pattern across everything, here in the uk it happened with people like Jeremy Clarkson, Quentin Wilson and Tiff Needell describing cars as looking dated, I could even post a link to William Woolard saying this in 1986 about eastern european cars of that era.
I can only speak for myself, I wouldnt say I had a revival of retro gaming, its an appreciation that has always been there, I sold my mega drive in about 1998 and my game gear in the early 2000s, which i regretted. when i bought my ps2 in 2002 it wasnt long before i had the retro collections of the time, which i still have. I go to events, I am on forums all over about retro games (I even organised secret santas this year for this forum and another forum) and I own roughly 20 systems. I think any view that says something is dated or hasnt aged well is a sign of ignorance and bad reviewing, my question is 'am i having fun?' 'if this is trying to be realistic is it imitating what would happen in real life?' 'if this is not trying to be realistic, see question 1'
example: I play a lot of racing games, I LOVE micro machines, they are totally unrealistic, but outrageously good fun, by the time they were released there were graphically superior games, so someone ignorant would say 'those graphics were old in the mid 90s' whereas someone not ignorant would say 'this was the best fun ever at the time and still is'
in order for gaming to continue, same as every hobby we need people like us to enjoy what has gone before but these people need to come from all over, and to understand why old things are great. we have fashion fans bringing vintage fashion back, vintage car enthusiasts restoring old cars and of course retro gamers. it helps to show a rounded version of where we are, same as we have breweries making beer in the old fashioned way (which is great with me) we need to encourage younger people to come into what we do, i know some sites where teenagers that are still in high school instead of spending their money from paper rounds on playstation and xbox are buying sega and atari, whereas if a young heavy metal fan asked who black sabbath were they would be welcomed with open arms.
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db
Alis
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Post by db on Dec 21, 2014 18:01:12 GMT
Yes, Goldeneye is one of those games that people always have to qualify with that statement and yet people will wax poetically about their memories of playing it. I've even heard people mention it in their wedding speeches. Clearly that genre has evolved a lot since then but if it rocked your world back in the day why not replay it once in awhile? Just because a game aimed at a level of realism and something came along later that trumped it doesn't mean the game is now just crap in comparison. Certainly, anything on the SMS has been technically trumped by now and yet we're still all active players on this system.
I think you're making my point, flatapex. Is it fun? That should be one's primary concern, not has it aged? To me, the kind of top down racer you mention seems dated to me since that's the way the first race games were and even in their time they never really grabbed me. I prefer the more "realistic" racers that came afterward but I understand that a lot of people still love this style of racer and for them it will never get old. Virtua Racing doesn't automatically make Micro Machines crap if people still like playing it. Of course, you may eventually get bored with a game and seek a fresher iteration. I don't spend all my time playing Virtua Racing because, of course, better more advanced and realistic racers have come along since. However, I do still play it once in awhile and have a lot of fun when I do. I appreciate it for what it is. Virtua Tennis is a much more realistic representation of a tennis game and a lot of fun to play but I still enjoy a round of Pong every now and then in spite of that fact. We need to get away from this either/or mentality when talking about older games.
If it's my choice of the word revival that's upsetting some people I apologize but it's just a word and based on the increasing interest and prices of old games recently I think we all have to concede that there's been a resurgence of interest in older games in that past few years. I used to be able to walk into a Goodwill and find old games for sale cheap. Now they don't even put them in their bricks and mortar stores anymore but just post them online because their hip to what's going on. The internet has made everyone an expert. However, I understand that many here have been fans of the system since it's commercial inception and that your interest is not a revival. I wasn't trying to suggest that but was just trying to explore what makes a game endure throughout time for people.
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Alis
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Post by db on Dec 21, 2014 18:12:36 GMT
Therefore the example you mention with the Corvette and Tesla also falls out of place, and although I don't know that much about cars, I still very much doubt that anybody would say "Well that hasn't aged well!" if they saw an old Corvette. There hasn't been that many revolutionizing changes in the automobile industry between those two models, compared to the computer industry. I mean, in order for them to be just somewhat in the same league, we'd have to have hovercars or flying cars by now, as a standard method of transporation, in comparison to what a household PC is capable of today, compared to back then. Well, I've never driven a Tesla but it's electric and doesn't make any noise when it drives whereas the Corvette burns gas and makes a lot of noise. I'd say that's a significant difference. Eventually, we'll probably all be driving cars like the Tesla because it's a better, more rational choice but that doesn't mean it isn't fun to drive the Vette. And I guess that's my point. When it comes to discussing older games we shouldn't be comparing them to the standards of today, we should be asking, "Are they still fun to play?"
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Post by db on Dec 21, 2014 18:15:32 GMT
You described a lot of people here as ´awful´ - Don´t try to be innocent. You´ve said that, and it sucks as hell. Think carefully about your choice of words!! I don´t play my Master System games just for nostalgic reasons. There are a lot of games I never played before, so I have no nostalgic feelings about them. I just love the system and looking to get to know more games for it. Can you link me to an example of me stating this? So far you're the only awful I've experienced here
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Post by db on Dec 21, 2014 18:47:36 GMT
Gordman, this one's for you! It's a public service announcement about what can happen to gamers when they take games too seriously: www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_xc6_Jid3sDon't let this become you!
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Post by korax on Dec 21, 2014 19:12:08 GMT
Therefore the example you mention with the Corvette and Tesla also falls out of place, and although I don't know that much about cars, I still very much doubt that anybody would say "Well that hasn't aged well!" if they saw an old Corvette. There hasn't been that many revolutionizing changes in the automobile industry between those two models, compared to the computer industry. I mean, in order for them to be just somewhat in the same league, we'd have to have hovercars or flying cars by now, as a standard method of transporation, in comparison to what a household PC is capable of today, compared to back then. Well, I've never driven a Tesla but it's electric and doesn't make any noise when it drives whereas the Corvette burns gas and makes a lot of noise. I'd say that's a significant difference. Eventually, we'll probably all be driving cars like the Tesla because it's a better, more rational choice but that doesn't mean it isn't fun to drive the Vette. And I guess that's my point. When it comes to discussing older games we shouldn't be comparing them to the standards of today, we should be asking, "Are they still fun to play?" Certainly there is a difference, but it's not the same difference as you're trying to discuss here. If you want to use this example in a gaming related discussion, it would fit better in a topic regarding eg. what preference people have in terms of playing games on an emulator, compared to playing on the actual hardware. Here you have two ways of playing the exact same game, in different ways, much like you have the corvette and the tesla as different vehicles to drive, with a different "feel" to each, but still only able to do the exact same thing - drive. There's nothing revolutionary between the corvette and tesla which alters the overall perception of what a car is able to do, and despite the alternate fuel source and "feel", it still only gets you from A to B in an almost identical manner. In contrast, the computer and gaming industry have been revolutionized multiple times over, in just a few decades, and the boundaries of what a computer is able to do has been breached time and time again, and with it games have adapted and taken advantage of the new possibilities as well. It's a completely different setting.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 19:37:43 GMT
Here you inattentive lollipop I don't know SA. It seems like it's not just old guys like me trying to relive their youth but an awful lot of younger folk (yourself included) seem to be into this retro revival too. I don´t take games too serious, it´s just that dumb sentence of you that made me angry. If you include her, you include me too because we are in the same age.
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Post by Centrale on Dec 21, 2014 20:32:39 GMT
Gordman, "awful lot" is just a colloquial figure of speech. It doesn't mean "bad". It's just kind of a down-home way of saying "many."
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Post by englishinvader on Dec 21, 2014 20:38:29 GMT
Yes, Goldeneye is one of those games that people always have to qualify with that statement and yet people will wax poetically about their memories of playing it. I've even heard people mention it in their wedding speeches. Clearly that genre has evolved a lot since then but if it rocked your world back in the day why not replay it once in awhile? Just because a game aimed at a level of realism and something came along later that trumped it doesn't mean the game is now just crap in comparison. Certainly, anything on the SMS has been technically trumped by now and yet we're still all active players on this system. I do play Goldeneye and many other games from that era (Sega Rally Championship is a personal favourite), but the graphics leave a connection gap that isn't there with other games with less emphasis on realism. Games like Metal Slug or Theme Hospital could be released today as indie games and they wouldn't look out of place next to Fez or Game Dev Tycoon.
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Post by db on Dec 21, 2014 20:49:10 GMT
Sorry, Gordman. I know English is probably not your first language but sometimes here people use the word "awful" in quantitative rather than a qualitative way. When I said "an awful lot of younger folk..." I just meant a whole lot not that you are an "awful" lot as in a bad bunch of people. LOL! Sorry, man you just gave me one of the best laughs I've had in awhile. I'm glad it was just a misunderstanding though because I really couldn't understand what you were talking about at first. Look, if I point out that there's a difference in the perspective someone my age and someone whose young enough to be my child I'm not doing it to call rank in an authoritative way, as if my perspective is better or more informed because I'm older just different because I witnessed a different slice of history that you weren't around for yet. For example, I bet there was never a time in your life where there wasn't either a computer or game console or both in your house. I didn't get my first gaming console until I was 13 and it was an Atari 2600 I didn't get my first computer until I was 22 and it was a piece of faeces that you literally had to spend more time "setting up" than using in any practical sense. For the first 2 years I was in university I used an electric typewriter. See what I'm saying? Or perhaps my perspective as a gamer hasn't aged very well by today's standards Seriously, I hope you understand that I didn't mean what you thought. I also hope there are no hard feelings about it because since I've been here people have informed me about the Everdrive for the Master System, helped me solve a light gun problem, contributed to lots of conversations I've started, suggested cool new games for me to try and have just been awesome (not awful) in general. That's sincerely how I feel. Thanks to all the Sega hardcores here!
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Post by flatapex on Dec 21, 2014 23:40:36 GMT
early racing games, i would be looking at pole position on the 2600, terrible collision detection and all. part of appreciating any hobby is to understand the origins of it, be that cars, music, games, films. fun is fun, plot and quality beats special effects, classic cars will always be a thing of beauty and i'll always have a place in my heart for bands like queen which wrote the rulebook for a lot of bands i listen to now, you have to understand where you came from to understand where you are going.
there were sorts of computers in my house growing up most of my childhood, or at least in some part of my life, i am 33 years old, my parents apparently had a pong game in the early 80s and i was apparently fond of it because it filled the screen with green and i loved anything green as a child, then when i started school in i think 1985 there was a bbc micro we got to use for some things, i think there were 2 in the whole school, most kids gave it a wide berth but i loved it.
there are a lot of younger people than me involved in retro gaming, i am lucky as i look younger than i am (and am married to a younger woman), as i have said anyone that wants or needs help, i am here, if thats someone looking to rediscover their youth, or an old system they never tried, or simply to learn more to show their kids what they were into when they were their kids age, everyone that enters into the retro world with an open mind and a desire for fun will never be disappointed and people like me will always be around, i feel part of my role is to give out kindness, knowledge etc and encourage others that are younger than me to pay it forward. if people hadnt done that with me than any help i give out would never have been able to happen
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Post by db on Dec 22, 2014 0:08:23 GMT
I always thought Pole Position on the 2600 was a decent port but not great because nothing really was on the 2600. That's why they spent so much money on box art back then. It would engage your imagination and give you the gist of the story because the games sure weren't going to, for the most part. Nonethless, some of the games were a lot of fun, if not very deep.
I guess that's part of my original point, flatapex. There are lots of younger people who are into these games and since many of them weren't even conscious yet, so to speak, when they were au currant it can't really be just nostalgia for them. Something about the quality of the experience endures for them and transcends the non-stop onslaught of progress and history. I myself didn't come to the SMS until a few years ago. I was always curious about it in its day but never experienced it first hand until recently; and even with all my experience with games and witnessing the history of video gaming since it's inception pretty much this system still impresses me, even with all that's come since. So, it's not nostalgia for me but a pretty fresh first-hand account of my experience now.
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Post by legend on Dec 22, 2014 22:04:06 GMT
I think people should stop comparing games of old to games of today. It's like movies and special effects. Yes, we can see the strings. Yes, that's a puppet. But it goes back to not only imagination, but also working with what you had. Who gives a crap if the special effects aren't as great looking as today's CGI? If you stop and think about it, movies and video games tie together.
IMO, movies of today suck. It's more about CGI and how "realistic" they can make things look. Kind of like games of today...focus on graphics more than game play. I still watch movies of old and prefer them to newer ones. What will people watch another 100 years from now...The Wizard of Oz or The Avengers? Sure, Wizard of Oz has some great special effects for it's time, but compared to today, they're nothing. But who cares? Not only is it a "classic", but it's beautifully done.
Wow, Sonic the Hedgehog on Genesis looks crappy compared to todays graphics. Who cares? I bet people will still be playing Sonic versus oh say, the latest Call of Duty.
Now whether you agree with what I said above or not, that's your opinion. Final Fantasy 7 and Legend of Zelda OoT look like hell side by side current gen...but people will still be playing them for years to come. They may be slower in game play to the latest installments of the series, but should that throw you off and not play them? Should I shy away from Quake just because of how it looks like? Perhaps I should NEVER play Doom because it runs so much slower to modern day FPS games. WRONG!
Appreciate the games for what they are. Look at what was available then and accept that most programmers did what they could. That's not to say some crappy games came out during these times, but you get what I'm saying hopefully. I would much rather play some Virtua Racing than whatever new racing games are out today. I much prefer Street Fighter 2 over the newer ones. Mortal Kombat 1 and 2 are my personal favorites of the series. It's not so much nostalgia (as some older games that I prefer over newer ones I NEVER played during my childhood or teens), it's about fun factor. Most of us grew up in an age where it was more about imagination in video games compared to a lack there of for today.
I enjoy the 8-bit and 16-bit era games more than anything. I also enjoy some Sega Saturn games as well (even though I didn't get one of those until 2001 or 2002?). Once we start hitting the PS2/Gamecube/Xbox/DC era and then on I'm just bleh. I'll play the games, but now a days they can't hold my interest for as long anymore. I grow too bored with them quickly. Yet, I can go to an older game, whether I've played it before or not, and have all kinds of fun. Even if the games don't look as great, or run slow as slugs compared to newer stuff, there's just something magical about them that draw me in to them. Hope what all I said makes sense!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 13:00:46 GMT
Damn.. I know the word ´awful´ similar to ´terrible´ only. Sometimes, english isn´t an easy language^^
Sorry, let´s forget this DB.
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