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Post by Stan on Feb 25, 2008 19:56:18 GMT
Just getting an interest check on this. I'm currently working on a LONG, but very easy to understand (with study guides, exercises and answer sheets!) programming tutorial. I don't want to get too far into it though without seeing how many users would actually be interested in this. No offense to Maxim, I like his guide, but I know it's very off-putting to users who have no knowledge, and thus it causes a stagnancy in development potential where only a handful of people know what they're talking about, have trouble explaining it to others, and don't seem to do too much that's of interest to general users. I'd like to change that and open things up. Of course, don't expect to learn how to program within a few lessons, this will encompass EVERYTHING you need to know to program for the SMS starting from the ABSOLUTE, and I mean that, basics like binary and hexidecimal. Just wanted to see if regular users would be interested in this, if not to actually start projects but just to understand techincal terms, what they mean, how they're used and so forth. When I get into explaining assembly it will be quite time consuming and there will be a slew of lessons, not just one or two, I'm talking like, estimating, 100 or so. I want this to be easy for anyone to understand, starting from a position of absolutely no knowledge of programming whatsoever and going from there. Later lessons will include not only understanding assembly, but showing you how to manipulate preexisting code (after I make it) to create little demos to see how games work. Let me know if you'd be interested, I don't want to work on more lessons unless I know you guys would be into it. Andy already approved and play thought it would be a good idea, so let me know by posting here. If you'd want to help making exercises or anything, also let me know.
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Post by rupert on Feb 25, 2008 21:12:45 GMT
I'd be interest in a guide for idiots (no offence to anyone ) Ive never really took the time to read through Maxims to know if I would understand it or not, but seeing as Ive never done anything like that then I guess the easyer the better.
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Post by Stan on Feb 25, 2008 21:57:04 GMT
His really isn't that hard, IF you take the time to go to pretty much every source and book you can think of to make sense of it. Took me forever, but I have a knack for these things, actually just found out my mother knows how to program in assembly, so she may even help me get together some exercises and such for you guys. Anyway, that's one!
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Post by biltho on Feb 25, 2008 21:59:34 GMT
I have been thinking that this site really should move more into development and programing. Because no offense to maxim i think we could do it so much better and i think eventually we could move into making sms games to sell not mass production but about 50-100 first at no profit for members here then on to ebay for the rest that don't sell to see if we can produce a little profit.
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Post by TWRMotorSport on Feb 25, 2008 22:37:21 GMT
yea thatd be good id definatly be interested... my electronics isnt bad for the binary and hexideciaml and such but i got lost in maxims guide about 3/4 of the way through
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Post by Stan on Feb 26, 2008 0:29:04 GMT
Thanks for the support guys. I don't expect everyone to want to program, but it would be nice if we started to pull ideas together for some REAL projects and such. Yeah, it gets pretty hard midway through. At first it seems pretty simple and then get tough, and I really wish he had further tutorials or that one section of the dev part of power would finally be updated, but it's been nearly empty since 2006 so screw it, it's time.
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Post by Stan on Feb 27, 2008 19:52:23 GMT
EXCELLENT news guys. Though I don't expect him to spend every waking hour or any significant portions of his life on this, Scott has agreed to help putting the tutorial together. He has the official Genesis manual to work on audio and I sent him the official SMS programmer's guide since he doesn't have one anymore. Depending on what he has time to offer, expect awesome stuff like, perhaps, a little tutorial that shows you how to get a character to move on screen, alter their colors, jump and so forth, piece by piece so you can do it yourself. Pretty psyched about this. The binary tutorial is almost completed, need to add some exercises and such, expect to see it in about two weeks at the most.
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Aypok
Sonic the Hedgehog
Posts: 2,372
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Post by Aypok on Feb 27, 2008 20:11:48 GMT
I don't mean to piddle on your parade, but why bother writing about the basic stuff like binary and hex? I fully agree that they need to be explained, but there are a lot of good tutorials on such things already out there. Would it not be better to spend time on things that are not documented? Although it would fit together better if all written by the same person/group...
Also, if you want someone to proof-read anything (for mistakes in the code or English), let me know. :)
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Post by Stan on Feb 27, 2008 20:27:58 GMT
Yeah, thanks, I thought of that actually, but I wanted to have everything all in one place. The binary tutorial is actually quite short, but starts out with a little history lesson and such to explain WHY things are the way they are, because I personally feel you should know that if you're going to get into this. Plus, it's just cool information I think. I didn't really think of just linking a tutorial or something, I just put together something myself, but as you mentioned already, it would be good if the same person wrote it AND it was all in one place. I wanted to start at the BARE minimum, assuming that most people reading it have no idea what anything to do with programming has to do with anything. So I wanted everything there for them instead of saying, yeah, well, go learn this part yourself before you start doing this and that. I want to give it all in an easy to understand format. But yeah, sure, I'll let you look over any code. I'm sure Scott will do most of that anyway, but it will be good to have someone else helping out.
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Post by grolt on Feb 27, 2008 22:30:21 GMT
Yeah, this all really interests me as well. I've been looking for a good "in" to programming, and learning the basics like this would be perfect. Stan's the man.
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Post by Bock on Feb 29, 2008 14:23:19 GMT
Have fun with reality
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Post by rupert on Feb 29, 2008 15:02:40 GMT
what does this mean exactly? I would have thought you of all people would support the idea of users on this forum wanting to better understand SMS programming. I can honestly say if Stan can put together a simple as possible step by step starter guide I would have a bash at it - then perhaps move on to Maxim's teachings which I have skimmed through but found slightly daunting. of course you may genuinely mean 'have fun' as programming is not that fun in reality, I guess?
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Post by Bock on Feb 29, 2008 17:02:53 GMT
Rupert: Why I mean is that if you require too much assistance in searching for information you're far from going anywhere with SMS programming. Reading code with a loose understanding of it is 1% of actually writing this code for your custom need. Maxim tutorial is excellent. It is a well written step by step guide. If you are truly serious about it, then you can ask detailed question and people will answer. Maxim tutorial is also 1% of what you need to get a decent SMS game done, so if you can't follow it biltho don't dare writing another paragraph of the same vein.
The simple reality (and it is not sad or anything) is that most of you guys are not serious enough to get into SMS programming. You are attracted to it when it sounds like easy entertainment but it is a serious path that only the very dedicated can follow. If you've already had programming experience (eg: higher level languages on PC) things would be easier, but apparently you are not so it doesn't make things any easier.
Writing yet another tutorial on hexadecimal is reinventing-the-wheel procrastination. Programming is not only SMS programming. If you go and write a game on any technology, you can reuse this knowledge on your SMS game. I'm not taking seriously any intent post with capitalized words such as "EVERYTHING" and "ABSOLUTE". It takes times and intelligence to anyone to get anywhere, not a 100-lesson tutorial. Go and follow that tutorial, when you are stuck ask and discuss. Then go and write a Pong clone, when you are stuck ask and discuss.
Also one easy path would be to start using Haroldhoop C compiler wrapping for the Z80 and SMS. While I personnally don't believe in that technology for proper end-usage outside of simple games, it is definitively a great starting point for learners, and Haroldhoop released many C-based mini games that you can browse.
Just to be clear, I think it'll be great if some of you can get into programming SMS stuff. In fact I am looking positively on the fact that Stan is taking on this challenge. I am just thinking that you are tricking yourself thinking you can make it any easier and reach a wide, cool audience of followers.
Stan:
I think we're absolutly happy to help and answer questions. It's just not easy, and Maxim himself have had not much time to improve, say, the tutorials. But we've always looking into helping people and that's basically that SMS Power forums are for. There's a wide range of things being debated, for all levels. I can't understand all of it myself. You never posted on our development forums btw. If you ask a simple down-to-heart question (not: how can I write Wonder Boy 7) you get an helpful answer here.
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Post by Bock on Feb 29, 2008 17:07:04 GMT
You know what, I'm thinking of something technical that can be fun, interesting and relatively easy to do. You can use MEKA debugging tools (palette viewer, tile viewer, tilemap viewer, memory editor) and even without any coding check out how some things are working in a given SMS game. With the memory editor you can edit stuff, study reaction, learn how things are done. If you are interested I am willing to write a short blurb, studying a game such as Hang On (which is interesting in many aspects, you'll see) using MEKA tools. You'll probably be impressed at how a game such as Hang On is done.
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Post by Stan on Feb 29, 2008 18:40:43 GMT
Yeah, thanks, I give up, I didn't know I was facing REALITY. Any help would be appreciated, but Scott is already all over it, so I don't think I'll need anything else. You know, makes more sense to have this STUFF written BY an actuAL programmer instead of someone who talks smack. As I said, we're going to put together tutorials SLOWLY that show you how and what to manipulate, why etc. etc. I know rewriting tutorials in binary and hex may seem pointless, but many people who want to learn this stuff don't know those basics and don't really bother figuring them out, so I'm putting it all in one HUGE article so everything necessary is there and done with. Sorry if my CAPS bother you, just how I add EMPHASIS. It doesn't mean I'm not serious about this. I didn't know WRITING IN CAPS = idiot. I think it's a good idea, and I disagree, though good, Maxim's tutorial is not what I'd call a beginning guide on SMS programming. It's more of an Aztec codex to be read by professors of meso-american archeology. You need to put things in more of an order so people don't have to swim through muddy swamp water to find what you're talking about. If YOU guys were really serious about SMS programming I think you'd update that and get that damn page in the development section with controller code and such freaking finished, it's been as it is since 2006. Anyway, we're starting from scratch, NOT from 'you should know this and that and ask us if you don't' because most people can't figure out what the hell you're saying because you have to go explain everything to them anyway unless they already know. So instead of that and talking down from the clouds, we're going to EXPLAIN. Binary is pretty much done, just need to add the exercises. You idea does sound cool THOUGH.
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