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Post by ShadowAngel on Aug 9, 2008 1:25:17 GMT
In North America NFL 2K1 outsold the PlayStation Madden equivalent by a large margin. SEGA's 2K line-up was a real force to be reckoned with, and it was one of the things that really prevailed when SEGA gave up the console business and focussed on games. That is no true. Truth is: In the first two weeks of release NFL 2K1 was sold around 49,000 times more than Madden. But don't you see why? NFL 2K1 was released exclusive on a established system, while Madden NFL 2001 was not only sold on a lot of different systems (and for example the PC version was and is always cheaper) but was also a launch title for the Playstation 2 and we all know that Sony had huge problems with delivering enough consoles for the market plus there were a lot of other, maybe more interesting launch titles (Ridge Racer, Tekken, SSX, DoA...). In the end, Madden sold more. NFL 2Kx NEVER outsold Madden. They took away a big market share, but thats it. Even the great NFL 2K5 (maybe still the best Footballsim) was outsold by Madden 2:1, even though NFL 2K5 only cost around half the price of EAs game. And well, yes. 2Ks NBA and NFL were good games. But other than that? NHL 2K was bad, it was so bad that Sega gave the developers two years to create a better sequel. NHL 2K2 was good, not great, while NHL 2002 from EA was the last good one in the series. And not forget Fifa. Football is still the most popular sport on the Planet and up until recently with Pro Evolution Soccer, EAs Fifa hadn't a true competitor. The Dreamcast Football games range from mediocre (World Wide Soccer 2000) to absolut rubbish (90 Minutes, UEFA Striker) Plus: EA has a whole lot of other franchises and games. Think about titles like Road Rash, Need for Speed, SSX, Knockout Kings, Medal of Honor, Moto Racer, Command & Conquer, James Bond, Nascar... Big names, all established over a long period of time. Most of the time, gamer only buy what they know. That's why most small developer have a hard time selling their unknown games, even if they're superior than the better known titles. I'm not saying the EA was the primary reason for the failure, but it was one of many combined. I think with a better Advertisement campaign and EA on board the Dreamcast would've sold better and survived. After all, until the Playstation 2 it had the best launch of all systems ever, setting up new records and making nearly 100 million $ in combined sales (hardware and software) on the first day in the US.
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Post by grolt on Aug 9, 2008 2:03:07 GMT
Two things: I love NHL 2K! Probably one of my favorite games for the system. I prefer it to the revamped 2K2, definitely. Sega fumbled with their first World Series Baseball game on the DC, but the followups were up to the high standards of the original iterations of the series. What other sports are there?
The truth about soccer is that even if it's the most popular sport in the world, it really doesn't sell in the key markets the video game industry thrives on: United States and Japan. So really, not having a good soccer sim isn't as big of a killer as not having football, basketball, baseball and hockey.
EA not being part of the Dreamcast lineup no doubt hurt SEGA, but I still think their importance here is being overstated, and always has in the press. DVD and PS2 were the real killer acronyms.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Aug 11, 2008 17:06:43 GMT
What other sports are there? GOLF and i totally forgot about EAs Tiger Woods series. At least you'll find more Golf titles on the Master System than for any other sport - except our beloved Football/Soccer ;D The truth about soccer is that even if it's the most popular sport in the world, it really doesn't sell in the key markets the video game industry thrives on: United States and Japan. I absolutely disagree with you about Japan. Just think about all the Soccer Manga & Animes they created since the 70s (with Captain Tsubasa being the most known) Japan even has a National Team in Futsal (Indoor Soccer), that is one National Team more than the so-called "Motherland of Football" has in that sport ;D So i would say that Soccer (and all its incarnations) is pretty big in Japan. When it comes to video games? PES is made in Japan, so was its predecessor ISS. Konami even before created Soccer Games. Take a look at the Neo Geo, more or less a japanese only system. You get 3 Baseball games, 1 Basketball, 1 Football, no Hockey but around 10 Soccer Games. And thats on a more or less japan-only system. And even on the MSX (Again Japan only), you'll find a handful of Soccer Games and on allmost every other system and in the Arcades ranks Soccer far above every other sport. And when it comes to markets. USA and Europe are important. Japan? Yes, for japanese developers. But just look at both X-Box, nearly nobody buys them and Microsoft doesn't even care about it. And even the Mega Drive did good enough without being a success in Japan. So really, not having a good soccer sim isn't as big of a killer as not having football, basketball, baseball and hockey. American Football is big in the USA. But where else? Especially since they closed-down the NFL Europe nobody cares, even here in Germany our national league doesn't get any attention. Baseball is big in Japan and the USA. Where else? Basketball...yes, but it can't match with Soccer when it comes to importance. There is no "Basketball World Champions" which is watched by Billions of people. Hockey...Has its fan bases in North America, Northern and Eastern Europe as well as Germany and Switzerland. That's it, a sport toally disliked in the rest of the world. And even the NHL has its problems in the USA, when it comes to TV Ratings.
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Post by Ruudos on Aug 17, 2008 17:25:30 GMT
In my personal experience the Mega Drive did way better than the Master System in Holland.
I didn't know anyone at the time who owned a Master System (people in my class had or a NES, Atari 2600, Philips Videopac, Commodore 64, Amiga). In fact, the first time I heard the word "Sega" was with the release of the Mega Drive (which we just called Sega). Mega Drive and SNES were around even.
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smslegend
Transbot
Master System >>>
Posts: 22
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Post by smslegend on Aug 20, 2008 11:17:27 GMT
In sydney most shops had only NES games, which explains why I have a much bigger NES games collection than the SMS, sadly. Both great consoles but I would have liked to have more games for the SMS
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Post by grolt on Aug 23, 2008 7:57:24 GMT
In sydney most shops had only NES games, which explains why I have a much bigger NES games collection than the SMS, sadly. Both great consoles but I would have liked to have more games for the SMS That's a surprise, since Australia always seems to have a huge Master System market even today on the 'bay. I would have thought that, other than England and Brazil, Australia was where it was at for SMS. Guess not!
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Post by Shelcoof on Sept 8, 2008 23:18:28 GMT
Agrees with grolt Sega's Sport titles like the 2k series were amazing and a lot more fun than any of the stuff EA dished out. Everyone I use to play games with played the 2k games all the time when we got together.
It is a shame that both the Saturn and Dreamcast went down the way they did but the good thing is I still manage to find time to pick up old Saturn and Dreamcast games when I get the chance just to see what I missed.
Just recently bought a Racing Wheel and F355 Challenge and before that two copies of Virtual On, two Twin Sticks, Link cables 2 Dreamcast to play VOOT with a buddy. It was great.
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Post by 108stars on Nov 14, 2009 3:44:28 GMT
Europe was really divided. While the Mega Drive and the Master System were definately successful in Germany, at least the SNES clearly outsold the Mega Drive. The MD did well, but the SNES was the hot system all the kids had. I knew very few people owning a MD, while half of my schoolclass had an SNES. Also SNES generally got slightly better ratings in magazines. One reason is probably that arcades are not open to people under 18. So basically they do not exist, the arcade machines you can find are in dark gambling joints and the popularity of Sega´s arcade games (or 3rd party arcade games like Strider) did not help. The games had to stand on their own feet as newcomers when the MD versions came; and while stuff like Strider, Out Run, Space Harrier etc were not ignored, they completely failed to make anyone interested in the system either. The first game that wowed the press here was Revenge of shinobi, and afterwards the real must-have-exclusives remained scarce.
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Post by KnightWarrior on Nov 21, 2009 5:29:21 GMT
I remember looking at some games in Sega Power from the UK, Mosty SMS..that was before the net..like in 95
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Post by ShadowAngel on Nov 21, 2009 14:03:19 GMT
One reason is probably that arcades are not open to people under 18. So basically they do not exist, the arcade machines you can find are in dark gambling joints Completely wrong. Slot Machines are restricted to 18 and over, while Arcade Games and Pinballs are 16 and over but in the end nobody cares about that law. You could and can find arcade games in a lot of other places. Bowling Alley, Billard Saloon, Theme Parks, Bars - they had or have games. I remember going to the Holiday Park (Theme Park) in the late 90s and they had a complete Arcade, only kids were playing. I played games like Sega Rally, House of the Dead or Pinballs like Addams Family at the bowling alley, nobody cared about the law because everybody laught about it. I don't know if it still exists, but there was a Indoor Go Kart Track in munich and even they had a lot of arcade games and i remember a game store that even had some arcade games in a backroom to play. So there was definitely a chance to play Arcade games even as a kid. It was not something that was completely unheard of. The first game that wowed the press here was Revenge of shinobi, and afterwards the real must-have-exclusives remained scarce. Golden Axe says hello and besides that and Shinobi what was there? Super Hang On and Super Monaco GP, but all the other early games on the Mega Drive are either mediocre like Alex Kidd or absolutely bad like Super Real Basketball or James Buster Douglas Knockout Boxing. It was In most of the multiplatform magazines, Sega received the same amount of pages, Nintendo did, there was no "Nintendo is better" faeces going on and to be honest, if Sega did so bad, why were there so many Sega exclusive magazines like Gamers, Sega Pro or Sega Club News before anybody thought about putting a Nintendo exklusice magazine on the market? (Club Nintendo does not count, because it's not a real magazine but more of an Advertising pamphlet) I would rather say, that until 1993 Sega and Nintendo were equal, a lot of people i knew had both systems. After that Nintendo took over big time, mostly because they suddenly started to invest large sums into marketing, sponsoring events and everybody went crazy over that piece of faeces that is Donkey Kong Country. Sega on the other hand stopped marketing suddenly around 1993/1994. They spent a lot of money for marketing in the late 80s and early 90s. They advertised in magazines like Micky Maus were i never saw a Nintendo advertisment. They had TV commercial, even for the Master System as late as 1993 and even Toys 'R Us had a lot of Sega-only advertisements in magazines.
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Post by 108stars on Nov 21, 2009 20:09:18 GMT
I disagree. It may be that the arcade machines are only restricted for people under 16 ( I am not sure), but that still left the majority of the target audience outside. And while you could find some arcade-machines in bowling halls, bars and Pizzerias, those were not places frequented by many kids either. Looking back at my childhood in Frankfurt, which is not a small backwater town, no kids knew anything about the hot arcade machines; Street Fighter II became first widely known as an SNES game, same thing with MK 2. Stuff like Strider or Ghouls´n Ghosts did not get any bonus because of their heritage either. Arcade ports didn´t help Sega one bit here; this is nothing you could call a serious arcade market, extremely different to the USA (and Japan) were kids were spending their little money in the latest arcade machines and hype about games was made long before the console-versions even arrived.
And for the games standing on their own without the bonus of a well-known coin-op Sega had a much harder standing. Golden Axe for example didn´t sell consoles either I believe; the game was not exclusive and available for about every home computer, which were still going strong.
I agree that the early MD games were mostly mediocre; that´s why I mentioned Revenge of Shinobi as the first game I recall getting real praise on the system. It was great in every way for its time, and exclusive.
About Sega and Nintendo, Nintendo definately had the upper hand in popularity since the release of the GameBoy. At that time Club Nintendo was started and delivered a free ad-magazine to all kids; and on Saturday morning we watches the SMB Super Show, Zelda and Captain N. The kids learned to know the Nintendo characters from their GameBoy and the cartoons and grew attached to them. And when the SNES was finally released, with many quality titles following shortly, the battle was won. I never said that Sega was particulary unpopular, the SMS probably outsold the NES, but the battle of MD vs SNES was decided damn quickly; the SNES was considered hot, the MD was more of a niche. True, Sega had the first magazine, but the year after GAMERS came Total! launched by the same publisher; and Total! was monthly, while GAMERS remained bimonthly until late 1994. This is a clear reflection of how demand was. Sega Pro did not even last 2 years, the only Sega-focused magazine beside GAMERS that survived through the 16-Bit era was the Sega magazine, which was sponsored by Sega themselves thus having a special back-up. I believe the reason Sega-magazines launched first had much to do with Club Nintendo. The Club magazine was a mammoth, it had quickly become an important part of the gaming kids lofestyle with it´s mix of comics, great, colorful layout and its excited, yet uncritical way of writing. As a publisher I would not have launched a Nintendo-magazine either, because with the GameBoy being Nintendo´s main platform it was more than later a kids´ thing; And why would a kid spend money on a critical magazine, when they could have the perfectly crafted cool magazine for free? The MD just had a somewhat older audience, being a high-tech toy at the time. Even my barber who was around 40 had a MD, but would never have touched kid´s play like the GameBoy or NES. That´s a better audience to market a serious magazine to. Only when the SNES was released and the interest was also there with people above 12 years it made sense to try and establish an alternative to Club Nintendo.
Sega did get a good market share; but judging from my personal experiences of the MD could not have made it past maybe 30 to 40% of the 16-Bit-market here. Big N was everywhere, and the SNES was THE console. Multiplatform magazines usually rated SNES games a bit better than MD-games, and Nintendo franchises got their 90% scores on a regular basis while even Sonic was a typical 80ies candidate. On the other hand Sega benefitted from the competition too; after the SNES was there Sega launched some cool marketing campaigns and had quite a lot of commercials on TV from 1992 - 1994, they gave away stickers and made competitions like the Mega Drive championships.
Basically I think Sega mostly wasted the pre-SNES time for the MD in Germany; only when the competition had arrived did they really start to fight and make people aware of the system. But that was too late to overtake the SNES; yet it still secured the MD a noteable market share.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Nov 22, 2009 0:32:05 GMT
I disagree. It may be that the arcade machines are only restricted for people under 16 ( I am not sure) It is, slot machines are 18 and over because you can win money, so it's gambling and like casinos only for adults and thats the reason why arcades were adult-only, because of the slot machines. In most other locations they had signs over the machine, stating that nobody under the age of 16 is allowed to play arcade machines, but like i said nobody cared about and the owners knew exactly that i were mostly kids who played those games. The funny and weird thing is, that even in the DDR(GDR) with its strict rules arcade machines were free for anyone, even kids were allowed to play them but that still left the majority of the target audience outside. And while you could find some arcade-machines in bowling halls, bars and Pizzerias, those were not places frequented by many kids either. You got to be kidding me ;D Or maybe it's just completely different were you live. But here kids visit those places, they go to theme parks or with their parents to bowling alleys or mini golf courses. Remembering back then, munich had a big indoor roller skate rink/disco. Sunday was always the big family day for kids - and guess what, they had a lot of arcade games and pinballs too, kids played them all the time. A friend of mine celebrated his birthday there once, we played those games all the time, was the first time i came in contact with Neo Geo games like Super Sidekicks and other games like Sunset Riders And even if the kids didn't saw those games in germany, they saw them at a vacation. Nearly every Hotel i went, had an arcade room from Malta to Tunisia. Most Kids went to Italy and there even some Supermarkets had Arcade machines (and mostly old ones, it's weird to see a "World Cup 1990" arcade game in 2001) So if you leaved your house every once in a while there was a chance that you could play some arcade games. this is nothing you could call a serious arcade market, extremely different to the USA (and Japan) were kids were spending their little money in the latest arcade machines and hype about games was made long before the console-versions even arrived. That's true, but you make it sound like arcade games were completely unknown to kids in germany, which certainly is wrong. I played so many arcade games from age 8 on and spent so much money on them, that it isn't funny, could've bought at least 5 gamess from all the money that went into those machines. And for the games standing on their own without the bonus of a well-known coin-op Sega had a much harder standing. Golden Axe for example didn´t sell consoles either I believe; the game was not exclusive and available for about every home computer, which were still going strong. Yeah and those home computer ports sucked. The PC Version of Golden Axe is bad, the Amiga version a joke with its weird colors and it's even missing some stages. Golden Axe on the Mega Drive was the first chance to play that game in a form that's at least close to the original and every magazine made it clear, that it was the version to get and one of the early reasons to buy the console. and on Saturday morning we watches the SMB Super Show, Zelda and Captain N. The kids learned to know the Nintendo characters from their GameBoy and the cartoons and grew attached to them. Maybe, but i don't believe the cartoons had that big of an impact. If it was, all those Sonic TV Shows or the Sonic Comic would've given Sega a boost, which wasn't the case. Same goes for a billion of advertising cartoons for Toy lines, which bombed (For example: She-Ra, New Adventures of He-Man, Bravestarr) the MD was more of a niche. As far as i know, the Mega Drive sold over 1 million units in germany. How can that be a "niche"? A niche console was the Neo Geo, the Amiga CD32 or the Jaguar, but no the Mega Drive. True, Sega had the first magazine, but the year after GAMERS came Total! launched by the same publisher; and Total! was monthly, while GAMERS remained bimonthly until late 1994. This is a clear reflection of how demand was. It's a clear reflection that Sega was assfucked by the stupid mafia-like contracts Nintendo made, which prevented most of the biggest developers to release games for Sega until 1993. Of course you can't produce a monthly magazine, when you only get 5-6 games in a month. After that it changed but then Sega pulled soon after the plug on the 16-Bit Market which was one of the biggest mistakes they did, while Nintendo sold the SNES in germany until the late 90's Multiplatform magazines usually rated SNES games a bit better than MD-games, and Nintendo franchises got their 90% scores on a regular basis while even Sonic was a typical 80ies candidate. The biggest mistake you always do is that you quote and believe magazines and took them as source for something you have no clue about or think what they say is gospel. Of course they rated the SNES ports better, but it was only because of the graphics and nothing more. "SNES has better graphics so it's more fun". Power Play rated Mortal Kombat SNES better only because of the graphics, ignoring the fact that it was censored to death and the Power Play is the prime example of stupid video game reviews. They gave for example Wonder Boy in Monster World a bad rating only because they reviewed the japanese version and the reviewer had no clue about the language. That's how stupid those magazines were sometimes back then. Basically I think Sega mostly wasted the pre-SNES time for the MD in Germany; Like i said before, they had advertising in the late 80's and did a lot of promotion in magazines back then and from the beginning promoted the Mega Drive to kids.
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Post by 108stars on Nov 22, 2009 19:38:35 GMT
ShadowAngel, I think we should leave the debate at that; I wouldn´t want another escalation like in the past. It is quite obvious that we have an EXTREMELY different memory of the MD era in Germany. I basically cannot agree with anything you said here, being it kids playing arcade games, Nintendo shows not having a big impact or the MD being well-promoted from the beginning.
The only thing you experienced the same to some degree is what you said in your first post: Germany had a Nintendo-obsession.
Let´s agree to disagree over the details.
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Post by radcow on Nov 30, 2009 23:40:21 GMT
I chose the SMS over the NES and the SNES over the Megadrive. I'm pretty sure both were the right choices. me to I'm also very happpy about the choices I have made when buying consoles. so far I have guess right on which is the best to buy and which ones would fail. The only one which has surpried me is the Wii and with out it being so different from the xbox and PS3 nitendo may have gone the same way as sega plus the nes was all about ripping the kids off dont belive me go play punch out and see how it trys to trick you ino joining the nitendo kids club and thats why I hated my self even as a kid for buying a snes but back in those days street fighter 2 was like blonde woman with big breasts I had to have one
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