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Post by flatapex on Sept 6, 2015 20:33:29 GMT
Right, this is taking a lot of guts to type, but it needs to be said.
As the co-owner of a forum, and long term moderator of another, I have been made aware of situations including bullying.
One (now former) member was selling repros on ebay, wasn't the first, won't be the last, what concerned me is when he advised me he has recieved messages that look suspiciously like they came from people within the master system community. He has not shared the content but shared that one member was from Buckinghamshire and the other from Scotland. The content showed knowledge that could not be accumulated via a google search, these were people within the community that knew exactly what they were talking about.
The master system community is small, someone knows something about this surely?
This member has had to delete 2 ebay accounts and block these people, he has had numerous things said about him and has left the site because of the hassle he has recieved, I have nearly left too as I have been insulted as being guilty by association because I offered to create a website for him and in order to decide if/what I could do for him, I needed to know what his work was.
This is not the first time that concerning behaviour has taken place, we can delete his account but cannot ask people to remove accusations or insults against other members? I honestly thought this forum was better than that.
We have had scammers allowed to take part in secret santas with no warning given to the organiser (me), leading to members being ripped off. Lets not even begin on the unwritten rule of 'say anything you want if you have been here long enough', no wonder the post rate has fallen through the floor this year.
This post will not make me popular, infact you will probably think of me all as an enemy now, I could this post with a link to my websites, but I wont, I don't need to. I just believe something needs to be said, as there has been not enough said for long enough, and I care enough about this site to call the behaviour out now before someone says something in a less thought out manor
Sincerley Andy (aka flatapex)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2015 7:15:21 GMT
I agree with you my friend, this forum has lost a lot of reputation during the last years. Once I called this board my online home, but the behaviour of some people made me feel deterrent. When I think of my friend Private Joker, who was a well respected member of this forum, and the way he was criticized because he has sold a lot of his games on EvilBay and did not offered them here first, awakes bad memories in my mind. From time to time, people need quick money because someone in their families are sick or anything, but that doesn´t care, because ´Why the hell he didn´t offered his games here first?´. If you fail with this community once, there is never a way back. So I feel with Marc, who made a mistake (or not). It was mostly a great time with you guys, but after that charade that happened on here recently, I see it makes no sense to stay here. I only hope that some people change their minds someday, no matter how young or old they are. All the best, Marco / Gordman
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Post by Retrobob on Sept 7, 2015 11:18:06 GMT
I've not been massively active of late - I've said it before but (irrespective of who is selling) I don't like repros as it muddies the waters of games that are out there and leaves people open to being ripped off, intentionally or not (look at the art world as an example to see what this can become). Conversions or unreleased protos are another matter.
I'm neither from Buckinghamshire or Scotland and haven't messaged Marc (haven't seen his listings either - I'm not actively looking at ebay these days) but I'm perfectly ok with people on ebay messaging shady sellers who CLEARLY ARE trying to rip people off.
No Andy I don't see you as 'the enemy', I think you are a bit over sensitive to assume people would think that. Similarly over sensitive... people leaving the forum after posts after a few comments on an internet forum are just silly. These "I'm leaving" threads or posts pop up on forums from time to time always make me laugh - people need to grow a spine, you can't agree with everyone all of the time.
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concerns
Sept 7, 2015 11:49:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by flatapex on Sept 7, 2015 11:49:52 GMT
This isnt an I'm leaving thread, I will only go if banned. I did consider it though.
The situation with marc has been indicitive of what i have seen here for a long time, an ostrich style approach to moderation, admins and moderators left years ago, not replaced and a forum that suffers as a result. Where was the moderator back up to prevent scammers entering the secret santa? It was rife in 2013 and i knew if certain people did the same again, the whole thing would be ruined.
I can guarantee if marc had said similar things than were said to him he would have been banned.
If i am being overly sensitive then so be it, but what i have witnessed these last few weeks have confirmed suspicions i have had for a long time, to be a sega8bit member requires a thick skin, an acceptance of certain views being unpopular and a realisation that some care more for their expensive investments than the community.
I accept we don't agree about cartmods Bob, but i never viewed you as the enemy and am glad that is reciprocated (sp?). Many of us are the same, some however are not like that. My comment about some viewing me as the enemy was more about my views maybe being unpopular and some people taking it personally, I want to be proven wrong.
It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I see two very good friends leave in the space of a few days, I nearly added my name to the list, but decided that the community needs to be aware so maybe things can change, its what I would expect if someone wasn't happy on one of my sites
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Post by korax on Sept 7, 2015 18:38:32 GMT
This ordeal seems to have been blown way out of proportion. Compared to many other gaming-related forums, I've always found this particular community to be very mature. I've had disagreements with people here before, but we've always managed to keep a sober tone, and remain on topic without resorting to insults in order to prove a point. I like that about this forum and it's probably why I keep coming back. I have yet to see any form of public bullying, discrimination or internal jokes going out of hand - things that seem all too common for many online communities these days.
The low amount of active users is the only thing I'd like to see changed/increased as it is now, and therefore it is unfortunate that some people decide to "leave". (and the reason for putting leave in quotation marks is because I take this more as a symbolic act, since the SMS community is so small that you will most likely just end up bumping into the same people again and again, regardless of which major SMS community you go to.)
I agree with Bob about the oversensitive part, and to me it seems like some users have gotten very emotional about a few singular incidents and remarks in particular, which I'm not even sure could have been handled better by the community as they unfolded, and none of these seem so severe to me that I feel it is fair to blame the community as a whole for how they played out. I even have to admit that I find some examples childish and totally out of line. (and I do not say this to offend, but because I cant find a better way to describe it).
I don't see anyone here as "the enemy", regardless if they do agree with me or not, but I cannot fathom why people would want to "leave" based on the reasons laid out. If there ever was a community mature and willing enough to forgive and move on, I would be very optimistic about sega8bit, but in order to achieve anything you would have to make a truthful, thorough and sincere effort to clear up any misunderstandings which, until now (at least from a public viewpoint) seem to have been quite poorly executed to me.
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Post by flatapex on Sept 7, 2015 20:44:53 GMT
Sorry that some disagree but to me- if you condone sending abusive messages, that is something i find unacceptable. Just my view though.
I have given the evidence to the necessary people, i have nothing more to say. Lets all move on and if necessary agree to disagree.
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Post by barney on Sept 8, 2015 8:45:50 GMT
Scotland is home to over 5 million people, but I'll work on the assumption that it is being implied that I have been sending abusive messages to members. Just to be absolutely clear: I have at no point contacted Marc by PM/eBay/email/post/pigeon/telepathy/any other means. If I had contacted him, there would be no ambiguity - I would be perfectly explicit in stating who I was, as I can't see why I would have anything to hide. I have no idea what the content of such messages is, but if it's bad enough to upset people then I can't condone it, no matter what I may think of someone's "business practices".
If anyone has taken offence from my posts then it has been unintentional. I think some good points have been raised in this thread, plenty of things have not been mentioned but won't be dragged up now, and I won't say any more on the matter.
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Post by flatapex on Sept 8, 2015 9:56:55 GMT
Scotland is home to over 5 million people, but I'll work on the assumption that it is being implied that I have been sending abusive messages to members. Just to be absolutely clear: I have at no point contacted Marc by PM/eBay/email/post/pigeon/telepathy/any other means. If I had contacted him, there would be no ambiguity - I would be perfectly explicit in stating who I was, as I can't see why I would have anything to hide. I have no idea what the content of such messages is, but if it's bad enough to upset people then I can't condone it, no matter what I may think of someone's "business practices". If anyone has taken offence from my posts then it has been unintentional. I think some good points have been raised in this thread, plenty of things have not been mentioned but won't be dragged up now, and I won't say any more on the matter. All the info I had was where the accounts stated they were based, this info came from Marc himself. The only other info was that the people knew a lot about the master system. I cannot make assumptions about who the person was, neither would I want to. I haven't seen the actual messages, I asked Marc what they said but he never gave me any quotes etc, just that the messages were not pleasant and a lot of hassle, so much so he blocked the senders and deactivated the accounts. I hope this whole matter can be put to rest, we can all shake hands (in a virtual sense and in real life if anyone is going to playexpo, I will be there health permitting) and lets concentrate on our mutual interest- the master system, and making sure we do as much as possible to keep the hobby a positive one
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db
Alis
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Post by db on Sept 9, 2015 4:54:39 GMT
I've only been on here for about a year or so, I think. So, I'm a bit out of the loop in regard to this controversy. However, I think this is a very positive, constructive and friendly community as far as I've seen; and if the marc you mention is the marc I'm thinking of (and I've only noticed one here) he's always been a really decent guy that I've had several good, friendly conversations with here. So, I'm afraid I don't understand what beef people could have with him here.
Hey, I like spirited conversation and people with passionate opinions. I even enjoy a good debate now and then but they're just games, folks. Ultimately, like they used to say in Rome, De gustibus non est disputandum. In matters of taste there can (or should) be no dispute. I hope it gets sorted out...whatever it is.
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db
Alis
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Post by db on Sept 9, 2015 8:10:29 GMT
Well, now I'm intrigued by the mystery. What really happened? Why did gordman and marc leave?
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Post by Maxim on Sept 9, 2015 19:40:27 GMT
For db's benefit, as an old hand (of sorts), here's how I see it: there's a spectrum in the world of retro gaming, something like this: Pure collector: rarely plays the games Collector and player Real system player who is not trying for a complete collection Everdrive player Emulator player Hacker: hardware or software (I'm sure this is incomplete.) Anyway, there's some tension between the levels. The hackers can provide some use to the players - after all, the Everdrive came from them, as do things like gender adaptors, video hacks, rediscovered cheats, game reverse engineering, etc. Some of the real-system people look down on emulation, in particular. In the internet world, SMS Power! lives near the bottom and this place a bit higher up. Enter into this world the complicating factors of eBay and "reproductions". eBay has made a lot of stuff harder - prices are inflated (so you'll see a lot of pushing for sales not to use it), and the pure collectors are more easily able to take the games away from the player-collectors. This extra money then compels the fakers to up their game and produce stuff that is not clearly a "repro", in fact it's a fake passed off as the real thing. (Part of the reason for this is that you can't openly sell a "repro" on eBay because it is a fake. "Repros" of things that never existed, e.g. conversions, are still a bit dodgy due to copyright.) So the repro makers - who are still a cottage industry, although some have probably made a decent living - may come along here and lie about their "found" items, to try to drum up interest in high-value items, like certain items that are very sought-after. (I'm sure there's good money in printing Sonic 1 UPC stickers, for example.) That leads to a sense of distrust and anger, especially among the more non-NT amongst us, perhaps. Thus it's a good thing (for example) to produce a homebrew cart that's easy to identify as such by adding a little "db" to the edge connector Anyway, us relics have seen it all go back and forth over the years. The community is tiny, there's a few extreme personalities around but they tend to come and go. I think the best approach is to be open and honest as far as possible and not hate on anyone in the retro gaming spectrum; but the liars still need to be exposed, and our collective expertise does a pretty good job of that.
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Post by flatapex on Sept 9, 2015 21:34:38 GMT
Very eloquently put maxim, much better phrased than i ever could.
I guess i am an old hand of sorts, 13 years on and off in retro (wouldnt have had the off part had my health not failed me), 2 and a half in master system.
I have been here for the full 2 and a half master system years, gone from naive newbie to whatever i am now, probably similarly naive slightly less newbie, the number of members i have met in that time is well into double figures.
I think i have a lot of humble pie to eat, a lot of apologising, maybe even a few drinks to buy for people, almost certainly a lot of calming down to do. I think maxim put it perfectly about getting on and working together. We don't have to agree on how we do what we do, discussion is sometimes about not agreeing with someone elses opinion. In the real world if you didnt agree with your friend you would still be friends, shake hands, buy eachother pints etc and maybe thats a pretty good example of what we should do here. Disagreements come and go, expecting people to behave as we would isnt always successful but we will succeed a lot more by working together. I'll always hold out the hand of friendship to whoever will shake the hand.
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db
Alis
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Post by db on Sept 10, 2015 3:23:13 GMT
Thanks for the explanation, guys. I can understand people being upset if someone on here was selling repros as originals and so I really hope that's not what marc was doing. No one wants to be scammed. It's hard to piece together the specifics of the exact situation discussed above or why gordman and marc deleted their accounts as a result. I know gordman at one time had an issue with me and, not knowing it was based on his misunderstanding of my colloquial English, I may have even snarled back at him a little. However, once I figured out what the misunderstanding was I tired to let him know that there were no hard feelings on my part. I even tried to strike up a conversation with him a couple times but never heard back. So, I can only assume he did or does hold some sort of grudge, which is silly because it really was just a misunderstanding over one word, and it was his misundertanding, not mine. However, in spite of the fact that I got the feeling I wasn't his cup of tea I think it's a shame that he felt the need to leave because he really was one of the most active guys on here. In regard to marc, like I said, he always seemed friendly and pleasant to me.
As to the tensions between the different levels of SMS fans on this site, other than pure collector and hacker I seem to live in all those levels at once. I have a real system that I actually use and I run emus on my computer and play that way too. I have a small collection of games and have never tried for a complete set on any system. I suppose that makes me not a real collector in some eyes but I collect what I want to play and so perhaps it just makes me a less obsessively compulsive collector. I've been into emus since I first discovered mame back in the late 90s. I'll argue that, in a very real sense, it's emu users who will keep interest in gaming alive into the future moreso than console collectors. I know, why don't I just go play those games at my local arcade, right? It's just that my time machine is on the fritz now and I can't seem to make it back to the 80s anymore. Sorry for the sarcasm but I think I'm making my point here. Project forward in time a few decades and think about how many people will have access to playing these games on an actual consoles. Ultimately, time will make these items even more preciously collectible than they are becoming now. If I had lived in the time of Picasso I might have been able to get him to make me a drawing for the price of a drink; but I didn't. I live now; and now it'll cost me millions for that drawing...or I could just look at it on my ipad. Ok, I'm beating a dead horse here but I hope you get my point. I think collecting is great but the price trend in any collectible market usually only leads in one direction over time: up! I think we need to evolve past judging people for how they play their games and just appreciate the fact that they ARE playing them and are interested enough in them to be here when they're not.
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concerns
Sept 10, 2015 10:40:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by Maxim on Sept 10, 2015 10:40:58 GMT
In case it's not clear, I was not describing any specifics regarding the two individuals mentioned above.
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db
Alis
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Post by db on Sept 10, 2015 14:20:32 GMT
I wasn't implying that you were. I'm just trying to figure out what went down. As it's been stated here it's a small community to begin with and now it's even smaller. It's just sad news. Anyway, if you're out there still reading these posts, gordman, I'm sorry if I offended you or contributed in any way to your decision to leave. Please, come back and keep sharing your awesome finds with everyone! I'm not sure what went down with marc but, as I said, he was always cool to me. I'd like to see him back too.
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